September 1st, 2017

Viral video du jour

This one:

Looks bad for the cop, who is a Salt Lake City police detective. He must have known it was being recorded, too.

I can’t find anyone defending this guy, but if you go to the YouTube comments for that video, you’ll see a lot of 60s/early70s stuff like people calling him “pig” and saying they hope he dies.

The most complete treatment of the story I’ve seen so far can be found here.

69 Responses to “Viral video du jour”

  1. vanderleun Says:

    One thing not covered by that story in any detail but that was covered in other cam excerpts and reports was that the police officer was there to get blood in the hopes that the truck driver (who was slammed into by the car being chased) had some sort of drugs or alcohol in his system.

    This was a hot button issue from the Logan cops since they were the ones who initiated the hot pursuit that resulted in the collision and if they could find something in the truck drivers’ blood they might be able to lay it off on the driver and not the officers who initiated the pursuit in which the one they were pursuing died in the crash.

  2. Mike K Says:

    I ran a trauma center for seven years. The cops would not allow us to draw blood for BAC for use in court. They insisted on their own tech. We drew for our own purposes but they were not admissible in court.

    Once their tech screwed up and I had to go to court to testify the driver was drunk. He had hit and killed a sheriff deputies son.

  3. Frog Says:

    Waitaminnit.
    Cop brings (or escorts) an unconscious injured man (a fellow cop moonlighting as a truck driver) to University Hospital ER and demands a nurse draw blood? Where were the ER docs? Does this cop have rights to run the ER?
    Turns out the injured man is now an actual patient in the same hospital in serious condition. Serious head injury seems likely.
    And a nurse and a cop are arguing about the legalisms of a toxicology blood draw? The injured one should have been promptly MEDICALLY evaluated, like by an actual really real MD, lab bloodwork drawn, IV started, and he should have been hustled to a CT scanner instead of being fought over by two dogs about the same legalistic bone.

  4. Frog Says:

    vanderleun: Logan cops are potentially ‘at fault’ for the ‘hot pursuit’ of a lawbreaker who was hotly fleeing arrest? That is nuts.

  5. Ed Bonderenka Says:

    What was accomplished by the handcuffs?!?!?
    She was being detained fro helping others in the ER.
    Out of control cops.

  6. MollyNH Says:

    As a retired RN you have the right to refuse to do any procedure, you may have to explain it but no body can force you to do a procedure

  7. MollyNH Says:

    In fact taking orders from new number physician personally could be a couple I’m also act of assault

  8. MollyNH Says:

    Disregard above please, It should say, taking orders from non physician personell could be deemed an assault by the nurse. ( no i am not drunk)

  9. vanderleun Says:

    This is the link to the dashcams of the police of the crash that began the whole thing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6poJL1ujhQ

  10. MollyNH Says:

    Patient has the option to refuse any procedure & nurse can be charged with assault, if in the case of a mad man needing a shot of thorazine nurse can give it to but may be called by his defense attorney to defend her actions as a “reasonable
    and prudent nurse in the same circumstances. ” doing the same thing.

  11. JK Brown Says:

    He knew it would never stick, but as they say, you can beat the rap, but not the ride.

    Still foolish on the cops part. Never good to piss of those who handle your food, even worse to give pause to those who may be called to stop your bleeding. Not that the ER crew would hesitate, but they don’t have to do it the least painful way.

  12. miklos000rosza Says:

    I don’t know what to think about this. I really don’t feel like I know enough, and I’m torn. On the one hand, I worked in an inner-city ER for 7 years, so my first impulse is solidarity with the RN. On the other hand, we were always very tight with the cops, enough so that it’s difficult to imagine EVER being in conflict with them — Police vs ER staff. We worked together.

    If the patient was the driver in an MVA (motor vehicle accident) which resulted in a fatality, yes yes yes the police would want (and need) this driver’s BA (blood alcohol) in order to pursue Manslaughter or whatever other charge might look appropriate. If the patient is injured enough to be unconscious it seems like he’d have an IV in and some blood drawn as a matter of course.

    Hct (hematocrit) can reveal whether there’s internal bleeding, for example, and when the steering wheel strikes the soft tissue of the abdomen it often does not leave any marks. The BA would be called for just to judge LOC (level of consciousness). Is the patient unconscious because he is drunk? You’d want to know this at once. A closed head injury often shows no external marks.

    When/if the patient awakes, you’re not going to administer narcotic pain medicine at the same level if the combination of alcohol plus opioid might put the patient into a coma.

    You can’t always smell the ETOH (alcohol) on the pt’s breath.

    Also, sometimes patient’s in such situations did everything they could to resist having their blood drawn when they knew or suspected there’d been fatalities involved in the MVA. And the BA goes down fairly quickly with the passing of time.

    The reaction of the RN therefore seems highly perverse.

  13. miklos000rosza Says:

    MollyNH–

    No, patient does not have the right to refuse or resist any procedure. We restrained patients and did what was necessary all the time.

    Example: girl who fell from one level down to another at heavy metal concert and screamed bloody murder about her obviously broken ankle being moved in any way. Her friends down the hall heard her and attempted to storm Room 5, whereupon we had a mini-riot with Security intervening in the hall.

  14. Oldflyer Says:

    Well, this may be more complicated than it seems; but, the one statement that resonates is that an RN has no authority, nor responsibility in fact, to perform a procedure that is not authorized by a Physician. If a cop does not understand this fact, there needs to be some remedial training.

    I should add a proviso; my daughter, an RN on labor & deliver service, has delivered more than a couple of babies when the MD did not respond in time–usually in the middle of the night. In the latest case she delivered a baby with the woman still in a wheel chair as she was rushed from the ER with no advance warning.

    Nurses catch more than their share of crap. Without further clarification, I side with the Nurse.

  15. Ymar Sakar Says:

    The police unions demand obedience. You cannot say no to them. You have to Obey or else. Isn’t that what many people here championed before the riots of 2013. Law and Order and all that.

  16. charles Says:

    I fully support “Blue Lives Matter,” But, this kind of behavior is totally uncalled for, totally unnecessary, and it makes ALL cops look bad. Especially if the cops themselves do NOT condemn it.

    The most damming “evidence” is the cop’s tone of voice when he says “we’re done here, we’re done.” I also listened to the rest of the video on YouTube and it is very clear that he should NOT be a cop as he is not in charge of his emotions.

    And as one of the comments said – that cop is “unstable” as he threatened to have another officer arrest anyone who prevented him from taking her away.

    There is a clear reason why the founders of the US wrote the second amendment and I believe this might be a good example of why.

  17. charles Says:

    Further:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C204U2LUQVk

    This comes across as nothing but a lame apology – perhaps the cops know if they lose the support of medical professionals they are truly on their own.

  18. Tuvea Says:

    I side with the nurse.

    The police officer exceeded his legal authority. Finding out he said that he was ‘just following orders’ to get a blood sample is chilling, to say the least.

  19. OriginalFrank Says:

    False arrest, unlawful acts under color of auhtority, assault – yes, somebody needs to go to jail but it’s not the nurse.

  20. Dave Says:

    Liberals love to make excuses for criminals justifying their crimes by bringing up their sympathetic upbringings or other circumstantial excuses. They have so much sympathy for minorities but never white men and cops. They claimed poor and minorities are being dehumanized but they will dehumanise white men and police any chance they get to push a bs narrative. The police was in a deadly car chase, the cop has an bullseye on his back every time he puts on an uniform, he might have a colleague injured, and he made a mistake, give him a break, give people a break, being a cop is no thank job.

  21. Dave Says:

    Liberals have empathy for minorities but not for anyone else that they deemed to have a power advantage in society. I think that is the difference between liberals and conservatives. Liberals have selective empathy while conservatives have empathy for everyone else, including the non voting fetus Sometimes a person in power groups can be wronged too, but whenever you speak up for whoever belonged to aliberal defined advantageous group then you are a racist even if this person is totally being wronged in this situation, and they will also condemn you as a racist wherever you disagree with a black person, even as trivial as an discussion about sports.

  22. Roy Says:

    The cop exceeded his authority. Indeed, in my opinion, he abused his authority.

    It’s obvious on the video that when the nurse failed to comply with his orders, he lost his temper.

    Why he needed the blood draw is irrelevant. Under the circumstances described, he had no authority to compel the nurse to draw the sample.

    If the police wish to continue enjoying the support of the public, then this business of “You can beat the rap, but you can’t beat the ride.” has got to stop.

  23. Ymar Sakar Says:

    and he made a mistake, give him a break, give people a break, being a cop is no thank job.

    The SS is a job?

    No, it is a position of power. You peons don’t get to talk back to them as if they work for you. You get that right? They don’t work for you, you work for them.

  24. Ymar Sakar Says:

    The LEO in the vid also isn’t “unstable”. He sounds about the right age for someone coming out of the Academy. That is in fact, their intended target goal, this is the intended behavior, and it is considered Justified and Correct.

    When an ant talks back to the owner of the yard about when it is time to remodel the landscape and mow the lawn, the owner doesn’t sit patiently and have a quiet talk with the ant. He goes out and steps on the ant and starts putting down ant killing bio warfare.

    The police are superior to the civilians and criminals. Criminals come from civilians. Criminals are the enemy of police thus civilians are potentially the Enemy too. They are not the “Blue Brothers” and it doesn’t matter what happens to them, since the civilians work for the unions, not the other way around. The Mayor even works for the unions.

    When LEOs are told to STAND DOWN, let them burn, get killed, and raped, will they obey?

    They already obeyed, hah.

  25. Ymar Sakar Says:

    This comes across as nothing but a lame apology – perhaps the cops know if they lose the support of medical professionals they are truly on their own.

    Utah was originally run entirely by the Latter Day Saints, aka Mormons.

    THe police unions can step on regular civilians. But against a powerhouse theocratic republic like that… they are probably not going to want to deal with that political problem any time soon.

  26. Ymar Sakar Says:

    This is also why unions fought so hard against body cameras. Why Utah adopted it… shrugs. Probably some kind of political pressure behind closed doors.

  27. OldTexan Says:

    An interesting situation and I suspect the nurse will win a very lucrative law suit against the phlebotomist cop when went nuts on her. Nurse says man is unconscious and cannot give consent so you need to get a warrant. Cops talking say they have no PC (probable cause) for the warrant and crazy cop says he is going to take blood anyway. Nurse is on phone speaker to higher ups telling her no warrant to blood will be taken and after a bit the cop totally loses it in front of video and sound and roughs the Nurse up and threatens others and at this time he might end up in front of a jury doing some jail time for being a bad cop. At least I hope that is what happens because the majority of law enforcement folks work hard doing a good job the right way but once in awhile you get a train wreck of a cop who is totally out of line using force being unlawful.

    Lots of back story motives here but it appears this is a real bad police abusive situation that has gone viral.

  28. Oldflyer Says:

    Ymar Sakar, I think you made your point pretty clear. You don’t like Mormons. It does seem to be a bit of reach to bring them into this discussion, however.

    And Dave, you gotta be kidding. I expect that most people on this forum want to support the Cops when they do their job–correctly. Maybe you, or someone else, can explain by what authority the Cop made that demand of the Nurse; and by what authority he cuffed her when she refused.

    I hope this Nurse sues the hell out of the police department that put this guy on the street; and that that department will take a close look at his suitability to be issued a badge, a gun, and a set of handcuffs.

  29. Butch Says:

    Why did none of the other cops stop this blatantly illegal action?

    Rhetorical question; I know why.

    The cops were on a fishing expedition, hoping they could evade some responsibility if the unconscious truck driver had drugs in his system.

    It’s the same reason they searched the house of that woman shot by the Somali cop a month or so ago.

  30. miklos000rosza Says:

    Arresting the nurses seems like an absurd step for the cop to take. I mean – you work with ER personnel day and night. If there’s a difference of opinion and you’re frustrated, call your sergeant. It’s just a job.

  31. Ymar Sakar Says:

    Ymar Sakar, I think you made your point pretty clear. You don’t like Mormons.

    Hey Aesop, does that mean I don’t like you?

    Not quite sure how to address this part of Old’s comment… should I treat it as a joke or as something serious.

    What in the world would give anyone here reason to believe that.

    What the audience may have perceived as dislike, was mostly directed towards the police union goon squads and death squads I talked about here years ago, and which people naturally made fun of it.

    Now I dare them to make fun of it now. When it isn’t blacks getting executed, but white boys and girls getting suppressed, is it so funny now? Also, I told people in 2013 that the LEOs were executing and torturing white people far more than the evidence presented for blacks. Not something people took seriously, here at least.

    Humans got it wrong, what else is new.

    If it takes a viral video to inform the public of what is going on… the public is at least 10 years behind me. Old stuff. Boring. Predictable. As Predicted.

    Next thing we are missing is some retired cop/LEO starting to lecture me about how I am ignorant about police procedures and other union bullsh propaganda. Eventually they’ll figure out their “police departments” got hijacked when they went into retirement, then I’ll be the one lecturing them about the things they think they know that turned out to be false.

    More boring repetitious trash to take care of.

  32. Ymar Sakar Says:

    It’s just a job.

    A job? Again with that underestimation of the Left’s fanatical religious crusade.

    It’s not a job to the SS. And it is not a job to the unions either.

  33. Ymar Sakar Says:

    Butch Says:
    September 2nd, 2017 at 2:20 pm
    Why did none of the other cops stop this blatantly illegal action?

    The LEO at the front seems to be the senior. Maybe 10 years after police academy, based on his musculature build up.

    His subordinates warned him he was on camera and others told him that he couldn’t arrest her.

    But the old union guard knows how to fix the problem of uppity civilians. He just kind of forgot he was wearing a body cam.

  34. Ymar Sakar Says:

    http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=3603287&itype=CMSID

    Salt Lake City forces began or finished buying body cams around 2015: 2013 was only a trial run with only a dozen cameras so probably had little to no impact. So this would be quite recent, and they updated the release of such video with another city bill in 2016.

    Now it is 2017, and people are already getting the benefits. If these are the incidents that happen with body cam “deterrence” that instapundit also approved of… then what about all the other incidents nobody ever heard about but I had heard about?

  35. Mike K Says:

    The nurse was right and the cop was wrong. I have no idea what his motive was but that was not good procedure.
    Lots of trauma patients have blood drawn without consent because they are unconscious. The police have never in my experience acted like that and did not want our blood draw for BAC anyway. They have their own techs who do the tests under the proper legal rules. I don’t know what the rush was.

  36. Yancey Ward Says:

    Given the underlying facts of the how the accident happened, there is only one explanation for why the police wanted the sample- they were hoping to cover their own asses for this man ending up in the hospital. The statement about how they were doing to protect the guy is a flat-out, bald-faced lie.

  37. Ymar Sakar Says:

    They needed the sample since if they could tamper with the evidence, they could show that the person was drugged or DUI, which means the responsibility for people’s cars blowing up and killing them in the chase, wouldn’t be on the LEOs. LEOs protect the BLUE, and the BLUE, protects the LEOs.

    Citizens and crims, you two aren’t included, step back now.

    The rush is so that they can say that the alcohol lever was decreased later through metabolism.

    How would they explain the blood samples taken during the ER surgery and trauma treatment? Shrugs. LEOs aren’t exactly picked for their super genius IQs. They are on average, smarter than common crooks of course, given they at least graduated from the Polizei Academy.

  38. om Says:

    This is why we have a legal system of courts and lawyers.

    And of course everyone “knows” what happened and what the reasons were, and who the guilty are. Because we saw this video.

  39. Frog Says:

    An almost completely discouraging set of comments, with many irrelevancies.
    The lost point is that the man, injured in a head-on MVA at high speeds, was unconscious, and his health care should -must, actually- have come first.
    Both cop and nurse were wrong.
    When people with little authority get to exercise theirs, they exercise it to the max.
    Meanwhile the unconscious head injured patient just lays there, unattended to, probably bleeding intracranially. Ruptured middle meningeal artery causes what, miklosOOOrosza? How is it treated? (The Aztecs knew how!)
    When I practiced, the patient always came first, and the hind-teat suckers found their teats way back there somewhere.

  40. Fractal Rabbit Says:

    Speaking as an LEO (or “SS” for Ymar Sakar, if he prefers…)

    This video reveals a man who has no business being a police officer. For a number of reasons in addition to the immediately obvious.

    He displays a startling lack of knowledge, or worse apathy and contempt, about and/or for the law he is enforcing. This nurse explains to him clearly the hospital’s policy (which, by the way, is in line with the latest US Supreme Court decision on the matter):

    1)The subject must be under arrest.

    or

    2)The subject must give consent (no more ‘Implied Consent’; the actual subject of the USSC case)

    or

    2)The police have a search warrant (the resulting decision of the USSC case)

    So, we have a Detective Grade officer, one who has (theoretically) likely passed a number of tests to get to his position. He is also a member of a special detail that draws blood so that the chain of evidence is protected.

    It would not be unreasonable to think that said Detective would be informed or aware of changes to the law and USSC decisions germane to his special detail.

    And yet, he didn’t.

    And worse, if he did, he ignored it because the hospital, speaking through the nurse and her supervisor (through the phone) had the temerity to “Impede a Criminal Investigation”.

    But even more revealing, to my ears is Detective Jeff Payne’s voice throughout the video: He is angry, frustrated and completely unprofessional. He is out of breath and panting, likely from a combination of adrenaline and lack of fitness.

    Take away the rest of the circumstances; an experienced officer should not be out of breath and hopped up on adrenaline just from the arrest of a woman who is clearly weaker than he is and not fighting or resisting in any appreciable way. Her “resisting” is so slight as to be nonexistent ; its the demeanor of someone who had no idea an arrest was coming, nor had any reason to believe it was coming. In effect, he was over emotional and not thinking clearly. That’s what happens when the adrenal hormones start flowing and the tunnel vision start to set in. Its actually normal in some circumstances but not these. And an officer of his age and experience should have a much more laconic, possibly jaded, affect when dealing with an individual who is no threat to him. Especially while surrounded by his own fellow officers.

    Jeff Payne has no business whatsoever being in that line of work. None. He’s not the man you want questioning you when you ask for an attorney. He’s not the man you want pulling you over. If you think otherwise, imagine him questioning your hard of hearing grandmother or special needs nephew whose IQ is slightly MR.

    Terrifying.

    It should go with the without saying that the whole chain of command needs to be terminated. And an easy case can be made that Payne and his Supervisor need to be prosecuted.

    “I was just following orders” didn’t work for the Nazis (the real kind, not the new MSM labelled variety) and it shouldn’t work for police officers either.

  41. Fractal Rabbit Says:

    Frog,

    I’m interested in knowing (since I’m not in the healthcare field and am mostly ignorant of such things) why you think the nurse was also at fault?

  42. SLR Says:

    Dave Says:

    “Liberals have empathy for minorities”

    I’m not a liberal. Fire the officer. 🙂

  43. MollyNH Says:

    @Miklos, you re mixing apples and oranges guy, not wanting to be moved after an injurious fall is not in the same category as drawing your blood to determine it’s constituents . Public Safety requires you to be moved to.prevent injuries to others taking blood against your will is self incrimination.

  44. OKBecky Says:

    My husband has 15 years of RN experience and is now an ARNP. He tells me that getting a warrant in such a circumstance takes 10 minutes; that they pretty much have pre-written warrant forms to fill in just for such circumstances (in the case of an accident and the patient is refusing consent for toxicology screens). He tells me of a time when it was “after hours” and the cop brought someone in and wanted a tox screen on him because of a vehicular accident, but the man refused consent, and it took just 10 minutes to obtain a warrant.

    If the nurse were to obtain the blood sample without the individual’s consent and without a warrant authorizing such a procedure against the individual’s will, she would be violating her professional ethics, as well as the law. However useful such information would be in terms of treating the patient’s injuries, that does not mean the police officer had a right to order the test, nor does it mean the police officer had a right to the results of such a test – not in these circumstances. If the nurse obtained the blood sample and ran the test because she was intimidated by the cop, the results would be thrown out by the judge because they were obtained illegally. Doctors and nurses may run tox screens on unconscious patients in order to provide necessary medical care, but that is not the issue here.

    Nurses are generally in a rather invidious position professionally: they must know as much about illnesses and drug interactions as physicians do, but they are not permitted to exercise independent judgment for the patient’s treatment. However, if the doctor orders a treatment that would do harm to the patient, but the nurse sees that the treatment would be harmful to the patient, the nurse is required to refuse to administer that treatment, for the good of the patient. A nurse who refuses to administer a treatment in such a case, can be fired by the hospital because many doctors get tetchy about their orders being countermanded by “ignorant” nurses, and the hospitals will sacrifice nurses in order to keep the doctors happy. (My husband has both witnessed this and experienced it personally.) If a nurse implements the order anyway, the nurse will be punished (under law) for implementing a harmful order. “Just following orders” is explicitly rejected as an excuse for nurses. The doctor typically receives more protection than the nurses in this situation, again, because the doctor is a greater financial investment and draw than an individual nurse is, and the nurse is the one who “does” the work of implementing the order. So the nurse would be the one “doing” the harm to the patient, by that reasoning.

    That Salt Lake City nurse was heroic in defending the patient, her professional integrity, and the law. The cop could have called a judge and requested a warrant and received one perhaps 10 minutes later. Instead, he behaved unreasonably and tried to bully the nurse into breaking the law and her ethical imperative. There’s no excuse for that.

  45. Mol Says:

    @Miklos, you re mixing apples and oranges guy, not wanting to be moved after an injurious fall is not in the same category as drawing your blood to determine it’s constituents . Public Safety requires you to be moved to.prevent injuries to others taking blood against your will is self incrimination.

  46. MollyNH Says:

    Actually

  47. miklos000rosza Says:

    I’ll just flat-out admit it — I think I should have kept my mouth shut here. The relation between ER staff and police is completely foreign to my experience. Therefore I am unqualified to comment.

  48. charles Says:

    Frog: “The lost point is that the man, injured in a head-on MVA at high speeds, was unconscious, and his health care should -must, actually- have come first. Both cop and nurse were wrong.”

    Hmm, no, Frog, that point is not lost. The nurse was DOING her job in protecting the patient. The (now dead) patient was already under medical treatment. The nurse was preventing the cop from abusing the (now dead) patient’s civil rights.

    The Nurse not only did NOT do wrong here. She is a hero in my opinion for standing up to a bully!

    That bully belongs in jail. and so do his fellow officers who did not do their job in protecting the (now dead) patient’s rights.

    Not just fired -but in jail! And the nurse is a hero for standing her ground in protecting someone else’s rights. She did no wrong!

  49. om Says:

    Why shouldn’t the cop be turned over to BLM or BAMN? After all we all know what happened, what the motivations were, state of mind, we know so much about this. Guilty as charged. Could have been a hate crime against those blue scrubs people. /s

  50. Fractal Rabbit Says:

    charles,

    The truck driver did not die. While he was a victim of the crash, it was the individual who was the subject of the police chase who died. (Which only makes the cops’ desire for a blood draw sample RIGHT THIS MINUTE even more suspect…). View of various other videos related and taken concurrently with the now viral video reveal that the detective and his supervisor knew the man who caused the crash was already dead. The supervisor said that he wished the nurse told them all that the staff had already drawn blood and they could have just subpoenaed it, as if the nurse can read their minds.

    Also, in other video, one can hear Detective Payne, who is also a part-time ambulance driver acknowledging that he probably burned his bridges at that particular hospital and joking that from now on, he’d send the decent people to other EDs and the sick, homeless and transients to her hospital for revenge.

    The truck driver was also a reserve police officer himself from Idaho. Driving a truck was his full time job. He is still in the hospital with severe burns.

    His chief in Idaho thanked the nurse and hospital staff for protecting his officer’s rights and called her heroic.

  51. Roy Says:

    Frog, I am trying to figure out why you assumed “…the unconscious head injured patient [was] just [laying] there, unattended to.” Seems to me that is a fact not in evidence.

    —————–

    Like most reasonable people, generally, I am willing to give police officers the benefit of the doubt. But in this case, it’s obvious to me that this particular police officer lost his temper and abused his authority on this poor nurse.

    No, I don’t think he should go to jail. I do, however, think he should be fired or fined and then forced to retire. He is in the wrong line of work.

    By the way, this is also why *I* could never be a police officer. My temper is too fiery and hair-triggered.

  52. MollyNH Says:

    Not at all miklos, your opinions are most worthwhile!

  53. Frog Says:

    Rabbit and others:
    The patient, unconscious in this case, must always come first.
    That is my only point. It is not clear to me that he was being tended to medically as urgently as required at the time of the absurd altercation. It is not in a nurse’s qualification to be a defender of civil rights, but it is to provide patient care.

    OKBecky:
    You say “they [nurses] must know as much about illnesses and drug interactions as physicians do, but they are not permitted to exercise independent judgment for the patient’s treatment.” I dispute that vigorously. As much “as physicians do”? Rubbish. Contemporary nurses resent physicians, claiming nurses “care for” the patient, while a much fuller-trained MD just gives the orders, is basically a mere techie. They resent “orders” and being ordered.

    Nurses want to be the point of the spear, thus nurse practitioners, who claim to be, but in reality are not, supervised by a doc.

    When I was young, docs and nurses were co-team members, each contributing to the care of the patient(s). No longer true; it has gradually eroded. Now nurses sit on their butts doing “charting”, ignoring the cardiac monitors and being so slow to respond it is appalling.

    How many years of education after high school to be an RN? 4 years to get a Bachelor’s in nursing. That’s it.
    How many years to be a cardiologist? Bachelor’s, 4 years; MD, 4 years; Residency/fellowship, 6 years.

  54. Fractal Rabbit Says:

    Frog,

    Fair enough and thanks for the response. I believe in this case she is a Charge Nurse. I’m pretty sure that she was the supervisory nurse dealing with the police while the patient was being tended to by other medical staff.

  55. Ymar Sakar Says:

    If Frog was in charge of that ER response team, he would be standing there arguing with the nurse and police. In reality, the nurse wasn’t standing around the dying patient arguing, the ER team was in the surgical room. Why? Because you don’t see them outside the room mopping up the blood, that’s why.

    Humans…

  56. Ymar Sakar Says:

    Fractal Rabbit Says:
    September 3rd, 2017 at 12:01 am

    Has the facts. Something which Frog, on his horse criticizing everybody and their uncle, cared little about. This is the age of the internet, if you don’t get the open source data, you’re just lazy.

  57. Ymar Sakar Says:

    That’s what happens when the adrenal hormones start flowing and the tunnel vision start to set in. Its actually normal in some circumstances but not these. And an officer of his age and experience should have a much more laconic, possibly jaded, affect when dealing with an individual who is no threat to him. Especially while surrounded by his own fellow officers.

    His voice sounded like he was 22-25 which didn’t match his authority or age from other body cam angles. I like these body cams and instant releases, far different from the grainy cctv footages of assaults and robberies we study. Even experts would have difficulty with those in analysis without digital enhancement.

    But not only do body cams have extensive coverage but they even have angle changes.

    Which is why people can see Payne’s pov and also a pov watching Payne. Normally LEOs have to reconstruct the crime scene, ala Zimmerman walk through, until they get a good impression of the flow of events.

    As for why Payne is out of breath and hopped on adrenaline and stress… that’s most likely because he was part of a hot pursuit that ended in a car burning and a person dying. Perhaps he thought he was dying or wanted to break the crim down, but since the crim is dead, there’s nobody to break down… oh wait, there’s this man boy in a phone talking to me and a hand holding it, let’s beat that thing up to relieve stress.

  58. Mrs Whatsit Says:

    Frog, I don’t know why you assume the patient wasn’t being treated. The articles I’ve read say he was in a medically induced coma because of his burns, which is why he couldn’t be asked for consent. I’d be interested to know your medical opinion as to how he managed to get into a medically induced coma if nobody was treating him. It seems obvious that others were treating the patient while this particular nurse dealt with the police, who’d showed up after the patient’s treatment began.

  59. Frog Says:

    Mrs. Whatsit:
    One does not medically induce a coma emergently as burn therapy. Third and 4th degree burns do not hurt at all, since the nerve endings have also been burned, and there is no need to immediately induce a coma for burns. One does not manage life-threatening burns in an ER, where this argument event apparently occurred. One does not induce a coma in an ER, but in an intensive care area. The way to treat life-threatening burns is to get the patient to the Burn Center ASAP, and the Univ of Utah Hospital has an excellent burn unit.
    How do you know from your reading that head injury was ruled out? I do not know. But head/brain trauma takes priority over burns, which are principally managed acutely by keeping up with fluid and electrolyte loss, and antibiotics by IVs and unguents.

    A medically induced coma is one part of critical brain injury care.

  60. Mrs Whatsit Says:

    So, likely the newspapers had it wrong and the coma was induced for brain injury treatment rather than burns. Either way, he was being treated, which was my point.

  61. AesopFan Says:

    Ymar Sakar Says:
    September 2nd, 2017 at 12:57 pm
    ..
    Utah was originally run entirely by the Latter Day Saints, aka Mormons.

    THe police unions can step on regular civilians. But against a powerhouse theocratic republic like that… they are probably not going to want to deal with that political problem any time soon.

    Oldflyer Says:
    September 2nd, 2017 at 1:59 pm
    Ymar Sakar, I think you made your point pretty clear. You don’t like Mormons. It does seem to be a bit of reach to bring them into this discussion, however.

    Ymar Sakar Says:
    September 2nd, 2017 at 2:33 pm

    Hey Aesop, does that mean I don’t like you?
    * * *
    [shrugs]

    I’m not really sure whose side you are suggesting the PTR would support: the nurse, or the cop?

    Contrary to popular opinion, not everyone in Utah is a Mormon, and not all Mormons live in Utah; and
    Utah hasn’t been a “powerful theocratic republic” for a long, long time (that’s somewhat of an oxymoron, actually, but we can debate that another time).

    Whether you like me or not is immaterial, so long as we can have civil and interesting discussions.
    But, if you were in a Denver ER, I would bring you flowers and chocolate.

  62. Ymar Sakar Says:

    Frog’s speaking out of turn again. The Doctor classes truly are arrogant when they think they can micro manage life care from behind a computer screen, miles away, sitting in a chair.

    Worse than desktop generals.

    The arrogance of Americans will soon be rendered null and void at this rate.

    No wonder I consider DC to be of little worth.

    I’m not really sure whose side you are suggesting the PTR would support: the nurse, or the cop?

    What PTR?

    That doesn’t really matter though, either way. Because there aren’t two sides, so the strategic calculations are too simplistic for those who think this is a vs b.

    Utah hasn’t been a “powerful theocratic republic” for a long, long time (that’s somewhat of an oxymoron, actually, but we can debate that another time).

    It is an unusual classification, but only because theocracies usually never survive long enough as a republic to be a big event in history books. Btw, the Vatican is a theocracy, closer to a Divine Mandate or oligarchy of cardinals and Popes *anti popes*.

    Until Americans get their education updated on what a dictatorship vs a republic is, what a republic vs a democracy is, and why a democracy isn’t a theocracy, they are handicapped in this issue.

    Whether you like me or not is immaterial, so long as we can have civil and interesting discussions.

    Wouldn’t one have to ask Old that, since he now decides who the positions of people’s relationship here is.

  63. Ymar Sakar Says:

    How do you know from your reading that head injury was ruled out? I do not know.
    Both cop and nurse were wrong.
    When people with little authority get to exercise theirs, they exercise it to the max.

    By Frog’s logic, how would the ER team know what the injury was since the patient was bleeding outside the room while 2 people argued, and received no treatment from the God like DC?

    To rule something out, one would need to run preliminary tests. What are the ambulance teams supposed to do, kick the patient’s head like a soccer ball to see if the brain fluids and vessels are in proper and in tact…

    When people are ignorant and love the pride of their ignorance, when you give them a little authority, they exercise it to the max. That’s way worse than two people being wrong in an argument.

  64. Ymar Sakar Says:

    om Says:
    September 2nd, 2017 at 7:07 pm
    This is why we have a legal system of courts and lawyers.

    Also why Benghazi, IRS, and HRC would be in Jail if Trum was President.

    This Legal System of courts and corrupt bozos in DC is a good con for the peons.

  65. om Says:

    Laws and the legal system are not perfect and often don’t appear to give justice. Get a clue or keep pontificating.

  66. Ymar Sakar Says:

    Get a clue or keep pontificating.

    The problem with lecturing people here is that Ymar can slap you upside the head with your own lines. Like this.

    And of course everyone “knows” what happened and what the reasons were, and who the guilty are. Because we saw this video.

    You lack the power and authority here to determine who has a clue over pontificates.

    om Says:
    September 2nd, 2017 at 11:21 pm
    Why shouldn’t the cop be turned over to BLM or BAMN? After all we all know what happened, what the motivations were, state of mind, we know so much about this. Guilty as charged. Could have been a hate crime against those blue scrubs people. /s

    Wow, it’s like you know who has a clue and where the pontificates are. Either get some authority and power with these /s lines of yours, or sit down. The rest should be easy.

  67. om Says:

    Y:

    Pontificate and yammer on. Your words illustrate the point even as you cite mine. Carry on, as you will.

  68. Ymar Sakar Says:

    Also Omni, I gave you a test before and told you that you didn’t have what it took to scroll past my writings, after you complained about them for so long that it bothered and upset you.

    As seen here, you still can’t let go of your lecture mode. You should have went back to your Trumpster dumping comments from here during the primaries, when you refused to accept that those who voted Trum could be voting their conscience.

  69. om Says:

    Y:

    You are a funny guy. Project much? It seems so, and whatever you say it must be true? Continue giving instructions and setting of the rules. Ever heard the phrase “You ain’t the boss of me.” Think about it, turn it over in your mind. Consider it’s deep hidden meanings. Oops, I was starting to yammer on.

    Should I take notes while you yammer and pontificate?

    The election was in November, check your calendar.

    Continue, as you will.

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Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.
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