August 28th, 2014

Those who fight for ISIS are not Americans

And we shouldn’t call them that.

I had started a draft for a post on this very subject, but Michael Walsh has covered the ground so well that there’s no need for me to do a full court press on it.

The point is quite simple and really common sense: “Americans” who leave this country to fight for ISIS, or any other country or entity or group who is our enemy, are no longer Americans (if they ever were in the first place) and should have their citizenship revoked.

And the press should stop referring to them as “Americans,” too. I know; fat chance.

And this isn’t just true of Somalian-Americans or whatever hyphenated-Americans might be guilty of this behavior. It’s true of people like John Walker Lindh, one of the first “American” jihadis. Remember him?

I came out for a proposal like this over four years ago, when Joe Lieberman (remember him?) backed it. My support has only become stronger in the intervening years.

I haven’t gotten around to writing about the Rotherham scandal (so much happening in the world that it’s hard to cover it all without a staff, and I don’t have a staff). But Walsh has this to say:

This comes in the wake of the burgeoning Rotherham scandal, in which some strapping “Yorkshiremen” turned an entire “British” town into a white-slavery ring. (“An independent report has found that at least 1,400 children were sexually exploited in Rotherham by gangs of men who were predominantly of Pakistani origin between 1997 and 2013. Report author Professor Alexis Jay said that girls as young as 11 were raped by “large numbers of male perpetrators.”)

But to describe things as what they actually are would be to let the cat out of the multi-culti bag.

[NOTE: In Walsh's article I also found a link to, and a quote from, a book called Rules For Radical Conservatives. Not having read it, I have no idea whether it's wonderful or awful or somewhere in between. But it certainly sounds potentially interesting. Commenter "Eric"? Are you there?]

[NOTE II: This photo of ISIS at work appears as part of Walsh's article:
ISIS

Very reminiscent of the Nazis, is it not?]

[NOTE III: Also see this.]

[ADDENDUM: If you're curious on the details of how citizenship could be revoked, and under what legal authority, there is already a controlling statute. See this. It could be slightly expanded to explicitly include joining or fighting for groups such as ISIS, or it might even apply as already written.]

43 Responses to “Those who fight for ISIS are not Americans”

  1. George Pal Says:

    The scandal was not that “Yorkshiremen” had raped the children, for that is their culture by way of religious pretense which either condones or demands such actions. The scandal was that the Rotherham constabulary and other government entities would have those children raped in the name of the multi-cultural cult, diversity, and vibrancy. This is treachery and betrayal for whom the infernal ninth circle of hell (containing Mohammad) is reserved. I know what I’d do to the guilty “Yorkshiremen” but I’m at a loss as to what would be a suitable punishment for the white, liberal, Labour, betrayers.

  2. neo-neocon Says:

    George Pal:

    Both things are a scandal, as well as any newspaper not reporting accurately on who was guilty of this.

  3. George Pal Says:

    Make that the eighth circle. Dante was too kind. I am not.

  4. George Pal Says:

    Neo-neocon,

    Indeed, but not to the same degree.

  5. SCOTTtheBADGER Says:

    Einsatzgruppen are back.

  6. Cornflour Says:

    Neo,

    Given the distinct possibility of increasingly Peronist Democrats occupying the White House for many years, I’m uncomfortable with the idea of giving them the power to revoke anyone’s citizenship. Slippery slope and all that. Instead, I’d like to see a clarification and expansion of the statutes that cover the crime of treason.

    I know this may sound paranoid, but back when Nixon was impeached for, among other things, just requesting information from the IRS; who could have imagined Obama’s IRS? Or his NSA? Or his Justice Department? If Obama can decree that millions of Mexicans are American citizens, why give him the power to revoke the citizenship of Tea Party members?

  7. parker Says:

    I am against allowing anyone muslim from entering my home land. Yes, there are muslims who are fine and descent people, but we are not in circumstances that allow them to enter legally. We have friends in the twin cities and they are outraged at what the somalis have done to their cities. All of them should be deported in a C130 and dropped over Mogadishu.

    Einstazgruppen describes these sick barbarians perfectly. Kill ‘em all and salt the earth.

  8. mezzrow Says:

    I agree with others – when I think of these government functionaries and their role in this, I think of lampposts.

    Just once, and this would not happen again. Attention must be paid here, and the people in power have not been paying attention.

  9. DNW Says:

    The left’s enabling actions are going to have to blow up in their own faces and maim their own lives (not just the lives of other Americans) before there is even the possibility of them changing their worldview.

    And even with personal catastrophe, I don’t doubt they will come up with a narrative which places the blame on Republican Obstructionists in the House who failed to join the wave.

    You know, Obama’s masterful plan failed because some Tea Partier somewhere was thinking uncharitable thoughts, or failing to shout halleluiah at the right moment.

    “If only the Republicans only had the greatness of spirit to yield and accept the social consensus we were fashioning for them, instead of fixing on their own selfish liberty interests, none of this would have happened.”

    They will blow themselves up and then claim that they were martyrs to Republican ineptitude.

    Or as others here would describe their self-serving cant: “Bush did it”

    Reminds me of a scene in a movie about Elizabeth I wherein a comic book villain Jesuit is taunted with the theme that if only he had the courage to abandon his religion and place his faith in his Queen, none of this nasty stuff he was about to undergo would even have had to happen.

    The left is ISIS, in an important sense.

  10. Tonawanda Says:

    DNW — you do pretty good droll!

  11. Charles Says:

    ” . . . .should have their citizenship revoked . . “

    That their citizenship isn’t revoked instantly and they aren’t lined up before a firing squad as soon as they are captured is a bit of a shocker to me.

  12. Ymarsakar Says:

    We shouldn’t call Democrats or Leftists Americans or patriots either, yet people still do.

  13. Ymarsakar Says:

    This comes in the wake of the burgeoning Rotherham scandal, in which some strapping “Yorkshiremen” turned an entire “British” town into a white-slavery ring. (“An independent report has found that at least 1,400 children were sexually exploited in Rotherham by gangs of men who were predominantly of Pakistani origin between 1997 and 2013. Report author Professor Alexis Jay said that girls as young as 11 were raped by “large numbers of male perpetrators.”)

    We got the same thing in America, people just call it Hollywood. Where do people think the Catholic Church got their homosexual rapists from? The Left, of course.

  14. Rachelle Says:

    Thanks for saying it. I cringe every time someone on the news describes these animals as ‘Americans’. They aren’t in soul or allegiance, and none should be allowed to return to this country.

  15. Tim P Says:

    Neo,

    Stacy McCain has a very informative article on the Rotherham scandal. It’s worth a few minutes of your time.

    As for the so called Americans who have traveled to join these Islamist Einsatzgruppen, not only should they lose citizenship and not be allowed re-entry, if caught, they should be treated as enemy combatants.

  16. Cornhead Says:

    Terrorist Anwar al Alawki (sp?) was an American citizen because he was born in CO where his father was a student. He then lived in Lincoln, NE for a number of years while his father took additional classes. (About 60 miles from my house.)

    But Anwar wasn’t born “under the jurisdiction” of the US as he returned to his parents’ home country.

    The citizen by birth cases were either wrongly decided or misunderstood.

    This must be fixed.

    Know this: that for over 100 years Indians born on US soil were not citizens. Why? They were under the jurisdiction of their sovereign nations.

  17. Tim P Says:

    Another good Rotherham article here, from Samizdata.

  18. Geoffrey Britain Says:

    Those who are no longer our countrymen, who have left this country to fight for ISIS, or any other country or entity or group who is our enemy, are indeed no longer Americans.

    But… they are merely the most egregious offenders.

    The recent Pew Research Center study that found that 60% of those who self-define as ‘solid liberals’, who feel no pride in being an American are not Americans either.

    They have forfeited all claim to being American because they are working, either actively or through their votes to destroy this country by supporting the use of illegal means to overthrow America’s Constitutional form of governance. They too are, Those Who Are No Longer Our Countrymen.

    And they are counting on the fact that to make them accountable, we would have to destroy this country to do so and so, they are slowly strangling this country to death, culturally, financially, judicially and in our ability to defend ourselves.

  19. Eric Says:

    Neo,

    Just based on the book description, sounds good as far as covering a facet – one set of tools for the workshop.

    Pair it with organizing manuals like
    http://doingdemocracy.com/ .

    Study recent examples, like the Ivy League ROTC campaign, that took on the Left and won
    http://advocatesforrotc.org/ .

    The big thing that’s needed is the people of the Right must collectively buy in, join in, learn and train and think as activists, (community) organize, activate, spread and proselytize. Proselytize and spread. First, non-stop, and always. Be competitive. Be a virus, aggressive. Be metastatic.

    If something like IRS non-profit status stops you, then you’re not an activist. Work harder. Work smarter. Figure it out and move.

  20. Geoffrey Britain Says:

    The fat lady has sung, the England that Churchill knew is no more. A country that will not defend its children has no future and is merely counting down the days till its formal dissolution. That in London and in Oslo, the most popular boys name is now Muhammad is, instead of being a cultural oddity, a harbinger of times to come. They have brought upon themselves their own judgement and have condemned their own offspring; evolutionary suicide, a societal Seppuku.

    And the left with the collaboration of our RINOs is dragging us to the same fate.

  21. parker Says:

    Given the present course, it will all come down to dust and we will kill them as we must. Their only salvation is to back off and of course they will not.

  22. Wm. Lawrence Says:

    Thank The Lord that we have got
    The Maxim gun (in this case the neutron bomb) and they have not. (Yet)

  23. Wm. Lawrence Says:

    Perhaps we should adopt a Chinese custom and give each of them a summary execution. After which we should bill their family for the bullet.

  24. Doom Says:

    Oh, yes they are American. They are the more sure parts of the aspect of America that elected Zero, twice. Unless America decides to exclude these, and those, they are every bit as American as you and I. According to about half, these are the better part of America, and even more supported, if obligatorily apologized for as a means of delaying or ignoring the real justice they do deserve. The same people who have allowed Ferguson blacks to terrorize the city, the police, and attempt to upend law, order, and real justice, while looting.

    I am not sure America is survivable at this point, not through strictly political means. More so as our generals are anti-American or being forced out. We’ll see, I guess.

  25. br549 Says:

    I honestly don’t see anything happening here in the states until it gets bad. Then I see all hell breaking loose. We all know the government sees it coming.

    Were it not for my three children and a grandson, I would not care.

  26. Artfldgr Says:

    sadly
    they ARE americans and nothing exists to revoke that
    especially without due process of any kind

    americans haev a long tradition of going off to help fight wars… from the duped anti fascists of spain (who were helpin stailn] to many other things..

    besides the bigger thing si the end of the US dollar as a means of exchange for oil (thanks to puting plaing chess while obama plays 3d chess anf fakes himself out)

    to the now created “Novorossiya”, of which they now declare they are willing to protect their gains with nuclear weapons… you know, TATICAL nuclear weapons..

    is it time yet to discuss what we are up against
    or do i just wait until the bright flash makes me a shadow on the wall… (ooh goody!)

  27. Artfldgr Says:

    I’m uncomfortable with the idea of giving them the power to revoke anyone’s citizenship. Slippery slope and all that.

    Really? you WOULD?

    so, if you get snagged, they take your citizenship, and then decalare that since rights come from the state, you have none.. as you are also not a citizen of some other state either.

    a man (or women) with no country, has no rights
    or if they have, they haev no one to fight for them

    how about… you do what i say or your citizenship is revoked, and your rights are forfeit?

  28. Artfldgr Says:

    who could have imagined Obama’s IRS? Or his NSA? Or his Justice Department?

    us anti-commiunists, of which latvians are some of the most anti of them…

    but no one listens to us tin hat, haters, and reactionary fools… heck.. no one even wants to bother getting the facts straight and are all too willing to put up their pet ideas for public review and social rewards if they sound good enough….

    so… we are now on the front of a potential nuclear conflict… if not, then the collapse of the current world order until we are willing to ahve a nuclear confrontation..

    welcome to the GREAT GAME..

  29. Artfldgr Says:

    as far as islam.
    i have put up references to many soviet groups and such that have fomented this post hitler… but no one wants to discuss THAT… they just want to accept what they see on the cargo cult surface.

    so they have no idea whats coming since their view is so up close they cant link these things together.

    guys.. link all the lefts games from early 1900s, to the present… with one country coordinating it all, and now, willing to use nuclear weapons!!! not only that, but it also used the faked collapse to open the borders all over (except theirs) and be able to aquire all the neat chips and other things that prior were not allowed…

    WTFU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    (wake the F up)

    and note. what happe4nd to those girls is SOCIAL JUSTICE… its payback for all the slaves and others who were raped by the british and the westerners over the past several hundred years…

    note that now the left is teaching that the americans murdered 114,000,000 indians to get the US..

    not bad… making sure its higher than all of socialisms murders combined… no?

  30. Artfldgr Says:

    Notorious Navy spy John Walker dies in NC federal prison
    http://wtkr.com/2014/08/29/notorious-navy-spy-john-walker-dies-in-nc-federal-prison/

  31. Artfldgr Says:

    those fighting with ISIS, of which we have not declared any war against… would just say they are following in the grand tradition of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade…

    The Abraham Lincoln Brigade was a group of volunteers from the United States who served in the Spanish Civil War as soldiers, technicians, medical personnel and aviators fighting for Spanish Republican forces as part of the International Brigades, against the Fascist forces of Francisco Franco and the Spanish Nationalists

    Of the approximately 2,800 American volunteers, between 750 and 800 were killed in action or died of wounds or sickness.

    we are not at war with ISIS…
    so how can you penalize the people who are volunteering

    even worse… ISIS is part of the lefts cadre, and the left lead, so how you going to get them to act against people whom they favor, while pretending to oppose?

    [meanwhile, looks like the fems are going to make sure the republicans get no traction... recent polls show the women are solidly in the fascist/communist socialist totalitarian nexus... those who arent, arent numbered enough to matter]

    20th Battalion, 86th Brigade fought on cordobas front
    .
    The George Washington Battalion merged with the lincoln brigade

    this is interesting
    The MacKenzie-Papineau Battalion: Two-thirds of the nominally Canadian unit were Americans. Its first commander was Robert Thompson, an American veteran of the Lincoln Battalion. Joseph Dallet, also American, was the first Commissar

    commissar is a russian/soviet term

    2nd Squadron, First Regiment de Tren
    The John Brown Battery
    4th Group, 35th Battery
    The American Medical Bureau

    During and after the Spanish Civil War, members of the brigade were generally viewed as supporters of the Soviet Union. After returning to the United States, many joined the Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade (VALB). However, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact caused a division among the Lincoln Brigade veterans. Some of them, adopting the official Communist line that regarded the war in Europe as “an imperialist war”, joined with the American Peace Mobilization in protesting U.S. support for Britain against Nazi GermanyOthers, however, persisted with the anti-Fascist line which they had followed to Spain. After the German invasion of the Soviet Union, the VALB changed its stance and fully backed the war.

  32. Artfldgr Says:

    Ship carrying $100million in Kurdish oil vanishes from radar screens 60 miles off the coast of Texas A tanker loaded with $100 million of crude oil that has been at the center of a dispute over Iraq’s oil billions vanished off the coast of Texas on Thursday. The Kurdish tanker disappeared from Coast Guard radar screens following a month of legal wrangling over whether it can offload its cargo in the U.S. As the disintegration of Iraq amid mounting violence continues…

    how convenient…
    was it sunk? torpedos? emp? bad day?

  33. neo-neocon Says:

    Artfldgr:

    You may or may not have written what you wrote sarcastically (about not being at war with ISIS), but actually, we are at war with ISIS. They have been officially declared a foreign terrorist group by the US and other allies:

    It has been designated as a foreign terrorist organization by the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia, Canada, Indonesia, and Saudi Arabia, and has been labeled by the United Nations and Western and Middle Eastern media as a terrorist organization. The United Nations has accused the Islamic State of committing “mass atrocities” and war crimes.

    And ISIS is certainly our enemy, which makes those who wage war for it guilty of treason (doesn’t have to involve a formal declaration of war):

    Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

  34. neo-neocon Says:

    Artfldgr:

    The Soviets have been stirring up trouble in the Arab world and assisting our enemies there for much of the 20th Century, and there’s no indication whatsoever that it has stopped doing so.

    People here probably don’t discuss it not because they don’t think it’s possible, but because they think it’s obvious. The only caveat is if Moscow thinks ISIS is a group that has designs on them.

    I’m not sure why you continue to think that everyone disagrees with things that many people actually agree with, such as the fact that the Soviets have been making trouble there, and assisting our enemies, for a long, long time. I’m pretty sure that’s one of the things Romney was talking about when he called Russia our number one geopolitical foe back in the debates with Obama.

  35. neo-neocon Says:

    Artfldgr:

    Also, to clarify:

    No law is needed for a newspaper to start referring to those “Americans” who fight for ISIS as, for example, “citizens who are fighting on behalf of America’s enemies” or, if appropriate, “naturalized citizens who are supporting America’s enemies” rather than “Americans.”

    But the treason law I quoted above could be amended by Congress to say that people who have been proven to be fighting on behalf of America’s enemies (defined in the statute as those we have declared war on, or who have declared war on us, or who have been officially designated as foreign terrorist groups by the US) are subject to having their citizenship revoked in a court proceeding. Due process would have to be observed; it wouldn’t be an automatic revocation.

  36. neo-neocon Says:

    Artfldgr:

    Here’s another statute that already deals with the revocation of American citizenship, and under what conditions it would be involuntarily revoked. That statute could be expanded to include situations such as a citizen who fights for a designated foreign terrorist group that is an enemy of the US, such as ISIS.

    In fact, I could even argue that the statute wouldn’t even have to be expanded. It would just have to be applied, particularly these parts:

    …(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
    (3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if
    (A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or …

    …(7) committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of title 18, or willfully performing any act in violation of section 2385 of title 18, or violating section 2384 of title 18 by engaging in a conspiracy to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, if and when he is convicted thereof by a court martial or by a court of competent jurisdiction.

    I don’t think anyone here would suggest that a president could just declare a person a non-citizen. That of course would open the door to abuse.

  37. Geoffrey Britain Says:

    Judicial Watch has just put out this statement:

    “Islamic terrorist groups are operating in the Mexican border city of Ciudad Juarez and planning to attack the United States with car bombs or other vehicle born improvised explosive devices (VBIED). High-level federal law enforcement, intelligence and other sources have confirmed to Judicial Watch that a warning bulletin for an imminent terrorist attack on the border has been issued. Agents across a number of Homeland Security, Justice and Defense agencies have all been placed on alert and instructed to aggressively work all possible leads and sources concerning this imminent terrorist threat.”

  38. OBloodyHell, 12033934th Wonder of the World Says:

    I argue it is time to retire the entire TERM “xxxx-American”. As in “Asian-American”. “African-American”, “Irish-American”.

    We need to remind people what comes first these days, so replace the above with “American of Asian descent”. “American of African descent”… and so on.

    In our modern fractionalizing society, the former term pushes more fractionalization. The latter, I say, reminds people of what they are — what they should be — FIRST

    Think about it.

    ^^^^^^^^^^^
    My US$.02 < —- and worth every penny.

  39. Ymarsakar Says:

    People here probably don’t discuss it not because they don’t think it’s possible, but because they think it’s obvious.

    I’ve already mentioned the Abraham Lincoln brigade and what the Soviets had to do with getting the Americans in there killed for being cannon fodder. This was from 1930 Bella Dodd sources.

    If I didn’t mention it here, I certainly mentioned it elsewhere.

  40. parker Says:

    Nuke the site from orbit, its the only way to be sure. – Ripley

  41. Ymarsakar Says:

    See, old news Art.

    http://neoneocon.com/2014/08/07/genocide-in-iraq-the-plight-of-the-yazidi/#comment-810787

    http://www.bookwormroom.com/2013/02/11/found-it-on-facebook-gun-crazy-liberals/comment-page-1/#comment-152216

    So no, while some people are out to get you Art, there are some exceptions with people who are not inferior to you in terms of “knowledge” or “wisdom”. Cause they don’t feel that desire or need, being your equal or superior to you in many fields.

  42. Ymarsakar Says:

    who could have imagined Obama’s IRS? Or his NSA? Or his Justice Department?

    When I got on the internet, I knew they were watching. The details just got more fuller over time, so risk vs reward was recalculated.

    So yea, Art, the reason why people were able to find you at home is because you talk and write too much. And those of us who “know”, that you think were ignorant or below you, weren’t talking. So there you go, that’s the reason.

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About Me

Previously a lifelong Democrat, born in New York and living in New England, surrounded by liberals on all sides, I've found myself slowly but surely leaving the fold and becoming that dread thing: a neocon.
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